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Determination will always outshine talent. Talent without desire is useless... 
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So is desire without talent.......in the context of the sub 14 5k
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Not sure why you re-started the thread Martin, as you wrote this at the start.
"But Matt, your 'typical' club runner is never going to run sub 14 min 5km"
What point are you now making?
We all know you have to thing BIG to achieve. But, if you can't run 1 mile at the desired 5k pace for sub 14 5k after training for years. How on earth are you going to run a sub 14 5k?
I think the thread has gone off the point of Matt trying to break 14 mins, and on to the usual slating from old school runners on how lazy everyone is now!
We know people can be lazy, But I've got a lot of respect for people like Ed Donovan who train there arse off to break 16 mins, but will never break 14 mins in a million years!!
But on the flip side you sometimes get guys who train just as hard (but not that much more) but have TALENT! Ie, Martin Rees, Paul Wheeler
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Martin is correct - We all have the "talent" to achieve our max. potential (whether it be 14mins or 24mins 5km) however the "desire" to follow a path towards achieving our max. potential is where most stumble. "Desire" is more than simply training their "arse off" like Stuart mentions. It is the willingness to improve using a holistic approach - nutrition, strengthening, training phases, technical adjustments, progressive loading (and all the rest) - not just over a few months but over a number of years. The link below is well worth a read - it refers to an elite level triathlon coach (my brother) and the considerable detail one looks at in terms of transitioning some from an "age grouper" to an elite level athlete. While it refers to their swimming the same can be applied to running as well. http://www.tritalk.co.uk...ms/viewtopic.php?t=86954Hope someone finds it interesting .... and perhaps can see how talent is important but to truely move towards that higher level the desire and long term dedication is more important. PS: Declan - I think he will medal in the 2016 Olympics (like one of his athletes Lisa Norden did in 2012).
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Good article Sean. And completely agree with you.
Maybe Martin should have started a new thread as it's a very interesting topic.
However, this thread is about Matt breaking 14 mins for 5k. It's just complete lunacy, no matter how much desire you have. There's more chance if Julian Baker buying a coke in the pub!!!
Matt - good run by the way in the Kymin! Surprised you didn't do the 4 miles in 16 mins though!! :-))
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Fair play Stu, I'm not dreaming of medalling in the Olympics. 16 mins was too much too ask, 4.2miles though 
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As mentioned, I was just looking back through the different threads. Not sure whether Matt or Jerome started the initial thread. The title was "advice on how to run a sub 14min 5km" so didn't think it was specific to someone.
Haven't read the article Sean linked to yet but will. I just saw a lot of banter about not being good enough to run a certain time and a comment on being realistic and I disagree with talent being more important. There were a lot of guys better than me but some just weren't willing to put the effort in, or got to that magic 18 years old and found booze and girls.
Not always the case but someone willing to put the effort in and/or think outside the box will usually trounce the runner with talent but not willing to put the effort in.
The runners I see that just will not do some weight/resistance training, or change their diet or get more sleep or stretch more often because they just want to run or can't be bothered. No problem but obviously not looking to improve.
Matt (and I have never met Matt)may never be able to go sub 14 or 15 min but if someone settles for running a certain time then that's what they will get.
Just my thoughts...
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Four potential sports people:
1. Talented but doesn't want it
2. Wants it but not talented
3. Doesn't want it and not talented
4. Talented and wants it
1 will sometimes beat 2, sometimes lose to 2.
2 will sometimes beat 1, sometimes lose to 1.
3 will lose to 1, 2 and 4 always.
4 will always beat 1, 2 and 3, except for in the odd extraneous circumstance.
4 is the only one who will achieve greatness, win the big competitions and break the world records. 3 will never achieve this. 1 and 2 will get partway there to varying degrees, but will never go beyond that.
Of course, the two other major factors are not getting injured/ill, and probably the biggest is having the opportunity. Having the opportunity is what will yield the best results, doesn't matter which sports person you are. This could be time, money or available facilities. Unfortunately a lot of potential sporting legends are probably lost due to never having the opportunity.
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Great post Oli. Me and Christian had this conversation recently. A few guys I know have done everything correctly (as Martin has stated) but are still not improving, and never will. They are non adapters to exercise (so called, not talented) However, they are still improving there health, if getting frustrated!!!
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I remember when I set up the forum 5 months ago asking Jerome to post some daft topic to help me test it.
We never thought it would still be going in 2014!
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Ed is correct. I set this up as a piss take since I assumed it was ludicrous enough not to be taken seriously
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It's obvious both "talent" / physiology and training effort are 2 key factors.
As you go up the distances the training variable becomes more and more important and there's more scope to beat more "talented" runners through hard work - one reason why the marathon is my favourite event!
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It's all just common sense really!
But the thread was about how to break 14 mins by Matt, or of he ever could. Clear lunacy.
Good thread though!!
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Just to keep this going a little longer and take it from someone else's point of view that may want to know what it takes...
We are not talking about world class performance here, just very good club/national level athletes. But that level does take a shed load of effort and some talent.
You could also have a lot of talent but just follow the wrong or rather unsuitable training programme.
I remember many (many) years ago when Mick (sorry to drag you into this) started giving me training advice and schedules. Mick is a mileage monster, or was, and that just didn't suit me and I couldn't cope. Mick would run 100 if not 120+ miles per week regularly along with some speed work. My ideal weekly mileage was 60-70 but with more speed work. I think Phil would have been doing less mileage than me but lots more speed. We were all fairly equal over the distances.
Also, I didn't have any actual official coaching after about age 17 so sometimes you are just wandering through your training without thinking about what could improve and make a difference, and racing haphazardly.
So where's this going? Finding out what really works for you training wise and not just doing what others are doing is vital and trying to find someone with good knowledge to guide you is also a big help.
It may have started as a piss take but I think quite a few people could benefit from this thread if they read the positives contained...
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True. A big problem with potentially talented people is they get dragged into racing all distance rather the just stick to one distance. If it's just for enjoyment then fair enough.
Chris Discombe is a good example. Decent runner, them became very good when he concentrated on 5k and below
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Martin - never apologise for dragging me into anything - because it cuts both ways and I hope to be dragging you back out training again. But I think it's a great thread.
Opportunity is the key, and desire. A lot on this thread are lessons for life too.
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I know that this thread was started as a test but I wanted to keep it going a little longer as it is by FAR the most interesting one on here. On page 1 Al has linked an article from Peak Performance. This article was written by the late, great, Frank Horwill. As pointed out in the piece he was coach to Tim Hutchings, but he also played a role in the development of Seb Coe. Peter Coe (Father/Coach to Seb) utilised Horwills multi-paced training to outstanding effect !!!! World Records don't lie.
Anyway, the point of my post is to point you in the direction of some more of Frank Horwills articles on training and coaching.
All you have to do to find these is visit the Serpentine website and click on the advice/coaching section.
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